Readers may remember a discussion I had with Werner Patels over at his blog on the subject of mandatory voting (
details here).
As I described in the post at the link I just referenced, Werner found me difficult and asked me not to post at his place. I comply: king/castle and all that, as I noted.
However, I revisited the thread to see what had gone on in my requested absence, and I noticed a few things, and I'm still free to comment here.
First: Werner's statement that:
Australia has implemented mandatory voting -- an entire country like that (especially Australia) isn't wrong when it goes down that path.
Sorry, Werner, "another country did what I think is a good idea" isn't a rebuttal; it's just a variation on the old logical fallacy known as "
the appeal to authority". In other words, nice as Australia might
otherwise be, so what?
Second, this paragraph from Werner:
Sorry, but unless you [ed.--meaning me, Ron] can show me that you are at least somewhat a decent person who is not only concerned with his own beer-drinking or hockey-watching time, and how going to the polls would cut into that "precious" me-time for you, I refuse to waste my time with someone who leaves his dirty boot imprints on our democracy.
Do me a favour, Werner, don't trot out "unless you can show me..." after telling me I'm not welcome to speak at your place to what you're writing. That's just bad manners.
In any case, dealing with your pre-emptive (and, as it happens, wrong-headed) smear, I hardly drink ever (a six-pack would be a very heavy year of drinking for me), and I don't watch more than a couple of hockey games every few years. Also and in any case, your valuation of the usefulness of what I do with my time is worthless when it comes to being a good argument for how I owe some of it to accomplish what
you want.
My time is *my* time, and I use it for *my* purposes. I have enough respect for you to allow you the same, in spite of your very evident lack of regard for me or the time or differing values of others. And you have the gall to question if
I'm decent all the while you trot out that authoritarian, clearly coercive "force 'em to vote" nonsense.
Third: commenter "Ben" followed with this:
Interesting how Ron Good claims that he doesn't have time to vote, but he DOES have time to write long posts explaining why he doesn't have time to vote!
I agree with you, Werner that non-voters give up all rights to the benefits of democracy. It disgusts me when people say give excuses for not voting, and then complain about the outcome. If you don't vote, then as far as I am concerned, you forfeit your voice.
Again, Ben, for starters, my time is *my* time, just like yours is properly yours. Also, I think posting my opinion in detail and perhaps affecting the viewpoint of others is a hell of a lot more
civilized (and, I think, more effective) than pushing people around either
with my vote, or by forcing people to vote. So: I didn't *ever* say I didn't have time to vote; I said my time is my time and I have other things to do with it.
And these two quotes coming up aptly explain why I don't--and won't--agree that my rights are contingent on your approval or the approval of some democratic vote:
"Neither one person, nor any number of persons, is warranted in saying to another human creature of ripe years that he shall not do with his life for his own benefit what he chooses to do with it. All errors he is likely to commit against advice and warning are far outweighed by the evil of allowing others to constrain him to do what they deem his good." John Stuart Mill
"Life, liberty, and property do not exist because men have made laws. On the contrary, it was the fact that life, liberty, and property existed beforehand that caused men to make laws in the first place." from The Law - Frédéric Bastiat
(And no, that's not an appeal to authority: the relevant thing is what they said, not who said it,)
But then, Ben,
you take the "forcing folks to do what you want" stuff to a brand new level:
Well, after some thought, I have the following proposal. Make voting mandatory, but in addition, force voters to write a simple test before voting. This doesn't need to be a long test -- maybe just 3-5 short-answer questions, asking them to specify the main issues of the campaign, and each party's view on each issue. For simplicity, the parties could be limited to the Liberals, PCs, NDPs, and Greens, but the voter could address other parties' views if they want. The test would also be designed to ensure that he voter is not forced to divulge their preferences, i.e., it would be non-partisan.
If the voter gets a minimum 60% grade on the test, then they can vote who whomever they want. Otherwise, they are not allowed to vote, and they are fined some pre-fixed amount.
Ah, so "
after some thought" your genius proposal is to force folks to vote except they have to also write a test first to see if they're qualified, and if their test answers don't meet your suggested bureaucratic approval, you fine 'em and disenfranchise 'em.
Fourth: Ben closes his post with:Ah, I understand. If Ben has his way, in the name of freedom, voters forced to vote would also be prevented from voting for what they
might vote for.
Man, and you think those statements somehow display a logical and deeply considered commitment to freedom and individual rights, Ben?
Fifth: Werner ends the thread with:
Uh, yeah...a democratic vote is somehow more legit if people are forced to vote than if they
choose to vote. That's just weird.
Evidently, Werner thinks (even apart from the ethical considerations he chose not to discuss) that forcing uneducated people to vote *now* will somehow still improve things--even though the voters won't be motivated or knowledgeable.
Exactly how that will work isn't explained but I'm sure the mental gymnastics required to even make the idea seem sensible would be thrilling to watch.
But there's another flaw in Werner's reasoning.
Werner and I had this exchange:
Werner: "Look at the rotten and corrupt government Albertans are now stuck with because so many people didn't do their share".
Me: "Actually, by your logic, the damage was caused by the only people who *did* do their share: the folks who voted."
In reply, Werner wrote:
and Werner had stated earlier in the thread that "Most of those who stayed home would not have voted for Stelmach, because the 22% who did already represent his only remaining core support (give or take).
That's fascinating.
If Werner is correct (and he has no way of knowing, actually--he's just assuming) then, logically, Werner *must* be saying:- that it was the *left* that was too lazy, too ignorant, too selfish or too stupid to vote, and
- that Mr Stelmach's supporters were the only folks responsible enough to do what Werner calls "their civic duty".
I'm not sure those were the points Werner was trying to make, but those are the only things that logically follow.------------------------------------------
An aside:
Don't take this post as any sort of blanket condemnation of Werner. I disagree with him lots about this issue and others, but he often makes good points; he works to be benevolent and he's worked hard to gain some considerable skills. Plus, he's brave enough and straight-up enough to put his real name behind what he says. He stays on my "Blogs I Appreciate" list.
This is *my* place.